Inter-Views
Different facets of women’s marginalisation, of violence against women, ...
... and of the ways women are fighting this violence with their ethics and their srishti/ energies
1. A new ‘women’s freedom movement’ for ‘justice-and-truth’/ neethi : the case of P.E. Usha
Inter-facing reconstruction by B. SchulzeIn a similar way as it had once been started by M. K. Gandhi, satyagraha (literally: ‘to hold on to truth’), a moral-political strategy which became an inspiration to many individuals and groups fighting injustices (often committed by state agencies) with their ‘hungerstrikes’, ‘sit-ins’, etc., in Kerala marginalised women resort to using their own bodies and their strong belief in ‘justice’ to resist the dominant power systems, and to make the mostly unaware public see its destructive mechanisms.
However, most of Kerala’s marginalised do endure it rather than transform themselves into hungerstrikers. Specially the women are aware that this ‘publicity’ makes her a “bad woman”#.
As we can understand from the above reproduced news item, in spring 2001, there were even two women doing satyagraha/ samaram/ ‘strike’: P.E. Usha, a rare kind of social worker engaging herself mostly individually (without party affiliations) in women’s, in ecological and in adivasi issues since a decade or so, and who was working as a clerk with the Calicut University in 2000-2001, and C. K. Janu [see also: www.re-wo-man.net] who had transformed herself with magical energies from a poor adivasi girl without much of a formal education into Kerala's impressive leader of a new Adivasi-Dalit movement.
*
Mathrubhoomi (‘Motherland’, liberal daily paper) of April 29, 2001 [see above]
shows photographs of C. K. Janu and P. E. Usha who were both doing hungerstrikes/ satyagraha
Headline:
Ushayum Januvum sthreesamarangalkku Strikes/’battles’ of Women (Usha and Janu)
raashdeeyamaanam gain a political dimension"In 1987 there was the rape of Thankammani (adivasi), in 1996 it was the schoolgirl [who was raped, and which incident became later known as] the 'Suryanelli case' ... but all this was only brought to public knowledge because the Left Democratic Front used it against their [political opponents] the United Democratic Front during election campaigns ...
But now these ‘strikes’ are lead [individually] by two women and are getting a [truly] political dimension.
Usha is doing her strike against the scandals and harassment she suffered individually [see below].
Janu is doing it to wrest the right to live from the society ... to get back adivasi land in Kundala [this adivasi area where the Govt. wants to build a college, and where Janu sits on strike] from the Govt. ... it finally agreed to shift to Munnar [another non-adivasi site in Kerala].
...
Usha’s problem started in December 1999 [... during that bus journey when she was sexually harassed, and later at her workplace another man] Prakashan spread scandals about Usha [ ... chronology]Once she was [after she had to end her hungerstrike] in the Medical College, the parties gave a political dimension to it - after one week the UDF [United Democratic Front] supported Usha - there were the elections ... and CPM [Communist Party of India – Marxist] University Employee's Union was on Prakashan's side ...
To Usha "it has been difficult to keep her self-respect - that lead her to do the strike but the political parties have not given support for 1,5 years - now they do." [for example UDF because of elections]
The strike started on a social and human concern but later it was given a [party] political dimension ...”
...
[With reference to C. K. Janu’s hungerstrike] Before the adivasis were ousted ... they destroyed the newly constructed buildings ... again they were ousted ... and against this Janu started her hungerstrike on April 28 [on May 5th she stopped the strike because the construction on adivasi land in Idikki was stopped].”*
Before the hungerstrike: an appeal to the public by P.E. UshaOne month before she actually started her hungerstrike P.E. Usha had published an appeal in the major Malayalam papers and magazines like Malayalam Weekly (March 30, 2001).
She appeals to the public to support her in her satyagraha/ strike:
"Ushayude samaram ... Usha's strike/ ‘battle’,
[A brief reconstruction of Usha's fatal bus journey on Dec. 29, 1999,]: when Usha was travelling on a bus from Calicut town to the university ... she was sexually harassed by a male co-passenger ... she complained to the police ... there were all these bad experiences in the police station, and also later at her workplace, the Calicut University campus ... she complained to the University Registrar on Jan. 4th, 2000, [that she had to tolerate a kind of ‘witchhunt’ by other men on the campus who insinuated that the bus incidence was due to her ‘bad character’ etc.] he referred to 1997 SC guidance ... finally the Vanitha [Women’s] Commission effected the suspension of the university employee [the initiator of the smear-campaign], the court ordered to present the report. This is on 2nd Feb. 2001 ... [but nothing happened]
To get justice Usha is going to start a hungerstrike in front of the Calicut university campus:
"Enikku nishedhikunna neethi ‘I am denied justice’therefore I will do niraahaara samaram ‘a no-food strike’
[about] neethinishedhatthekkurichu ennee ... aathumaabhimaanatthodu
‘it is the right of a woman to live in a place where she can work with self-respect ...’
... manushyas'nehikalodum ...
‘... people with a love for human beings ...should support this strike’. P.E. Usha.”
*
P.E. Usha’s satyagraha/ strike for neethi/ justice from another woman's perspective
from: Malayalam Weekly April 27, 2001
The author of this ‘open letter’ gives her name as Anitha Thampi [whom B. Schulze didn’t meet]. She publishes this satirical note which is ridiculing the irresponsible society, and its patriarchal/ party political bias – but also P.E. Usha:
"P. E. Ushay'kku Buddhibhramamundo?
A Note: Has P. E. Usha lost all her senses?From the beginning I felt that P.E. Usha is not intelligent. But now I feel that she has lost her senses. In yesterday’s newspaper I saw a news item that P.E. Usha started an indefinite hungerstrike against injustice. She demanded that action should be taken against an Employee’s Union leader who spread scandals against her, that an enquiry should be undertaken about the University officials who have protected the culprit.
If Usha is going on hungerstrike those who have done injustice will not be moved. After some days she will be admitted to the hospital and will be given food forcibly. After that the strike will end. There will soon be elections. If Usha lies down without drinking and eating the public and the authorities have no time to attend to her. If the public is not listening, the media, too, will not listen.
What is the injustice to P.E. Usha? Usha first contacted the police for getting justice. They are not at all interested. The police manipulated documents. She had bad experiences at the police station. She is lucky that she escaped without further blemishes.In this situation Usha started the hungerstrike. Dear Usha! This is Kerala! It has no value here. Usha, isn’t it that you want to live in this land for 30 or 40 years in peace with your daughter? For that this hungerstrike and complaint are of no use.
Usha thought she will get justice after that. This is a blunder. The same blunder happened to Nalini Netto*. In our society it is like this that whether she is intelligent, or she has a high position does not count in this men-centred power [system] [adhikaran].But ordinary women manage this beautifully. I tell you a story of how a working woman dealt with a similar situation. When she was working a male colleague used obscene words and gestures towards her. But she did behave as if she didn't notice. The next day this man could not come out of the office after worktime. There were four or five people waiting for him outside the gate. He trembled with fear and requested the union leaders and managers to save him. Nobody dared. At last he went to her and begged for her pardon. Within ten minutes people at the gate disappeared. Till now nobody had dared to touch her even look at her.
Dear Usha, womenfolk of Kerala, including me and you can only resort to the ways this poor working woman used.
Usha should at least give up her emotional approach and understand this truth.”
*
P.E. Usha's satyagraha from the print media perspective:
Mathrubhoomi, April 30, 2001
[a public note to Usha] (original)
"Calicut university Registrar says Usha's strike is unnecessary"
[because everything started with the attack on the bus by Sri Rameshan, and he was ...]
"not a Calicut University employee but a daily labourer elsewhere ..."
“Usha accuses [Calicut University employee] Prakashan to spread scandals against her ... Prakashan's case file has to be reacted to by the High Court. The university cannot do anything ...
the public should know these facts ... 30.04. 2001 Registrar ...
Malayalam Weekly [first week of May*][Usha started her ‘strike’ against Prakashan's harassment on April 18. Prakshan started his ‘strike’ April 19th. On April 30th she started her hungerstrike to "get justice"]:
- Usha's appeal to the public to support her
- "Usha's strike"
she clashes with the police, Registrar, there is Supreme Court guidance, Vanitha [‘Women’s] Commission
Mathrubhoomi, May 1st, 2001"Usha goes on fast in front of the Calicut university on April 30th" [original]
Tennippaalam = university campus
niraahaarasathyaagraham = satyagraha without food = hungerstrike“ [...] Prof. M.G.S. Narayanan inaugurated her fast, he is a retired history professor, formerly CPM, now he is writing against the CPM in BJP style ...
At Trivandrum the P.E. Usha solidarity group is giving a press conference:
"It is very shameful for the enlightened Kerala that we have to do a hungerstrike to get justice for women who are harassed at their working place."
Mathrubhoomi, May 3, 2001"Today Usha likely to be arrested. Congress will take over the problem"
[Congress leaders supported her publicly. Her health is o.k., it is only the 3rd day. The journalist says that Congress took over because of coming elections ...
M.T. Padma [woman Congress leader] states:"For getting justice Usha is going on hungerstrike; this is not her individual problem but that of all the women in Kerala."
Mathrubhoomi, May 5, 2001"P.E. Usha case: court order* [directs] the university to take action against Prakashan"
[Kochi] High Court [HC]: within 10 days the Govt. should act against Prakashan, a university employee and a left trade union activist who spread scandals against Usha.
Sreevedi Convenor Advocate Vijayamma gave a petition to the court. On that basis HC gave this order.
[Vanitha Commission is of the opinion] "It is a scandal what Prakashan did; he mentally harassed her, so he is a culprit.”
HC: after hearing Prakashan the Govt. could take action.
April 24th Govt. heard Prakashan but no action was taken ... the University kept silent.
Vanitha Commission demands to take action, also against the police, the subinspector.
Malayala Manorama, May 7, 20011. A. K. Antony [became Chief Minister, CM, but then he was in the opposition – it was just one week* before the elections!] is quoted saying that P.E. Usha and C.K. Janu were
“symbols of womanhood”# = sthreethvatthintu prtheekamaaya
... and stood for human rights = manushyaavakaasatthinuvendiyulla
Antony says: to oppose this strike for human right [as the CPM-lead union around Prakashan is doing] with another / alternate satyagraha is primitive ... and also the Govt.'s attitude towards Janu was not proper.2. "Usha in weak condition, today is road picketing"
samara samithi = [Usha's] strike committee initiates today the picketing of Kozhikode highway. Adv. Vijayamma inaugurated it ... [HC takes ten days*] Usha is in the Medical College now. Samara Samiti says: "Don't play with Usha's life, they will get retaliation".Sreevedi collected signatures from around the MC Hospital. Leela Sarkar (Malayali writer from Bombay), Manasi (writer), journalist P.K. Ravindranath sent to Cancellor and VC of Calicut University demanding immediate action to protect P.E. Usha's life. They also protested against the university keeping silent. ... Mahila Congress State Secretary Vijaya D. Nayar ... District Secr. of Congress demanded that the Govt. should take action immediately to end this hungerstrike ... Calicut University Teacher's Union [Cong.] demanded from the Chancellor [Governor] that the problem should be tackled without delay.
[Box column: opposition leader A.K. Antony also criticises the LDF: a "case of inhuman attitude"; Kottayam Press Club face-to-face programme.
[with reference to] CM Nayanar [from Left Democratic Front, since he is leaving - from Congress perspective] should be ready to give justice:
Ushayoduneetikaannikkaan mukhyamantri ...
Mathrubhoomi, May 7, 2001[photograph] "P.E. Usha arrested, shifted to Medical College”
... after her arrest the Usha solidarity council made a protest march in the premises of Calicut university campus. And they criticised the Vice Chancellor for talking to Usha when she was on strike.
Mathrubhoomi, May 22, 2001"Ushaprashnam: [‘the problem Usha’ (!)] Prakshan suspended" (original)
Vice Chancellor (VC) suspended Prakashan on the basis of the Govt., i.e. of the Vanitha Commission recommendation. The Registrar signed only belated but on that May 21st it had not yet been given to Prakashan.
Mathrubhoomi May 26, 2001"’Ushacase’: HC orders production of files" (original)
[some facts, informations already known ... new:] Vanitha Commission says that Prakashan is the culprit "koottakkaaran"Most of the translations into English of the news items were done by Jalaja Gurukkal, a few by B. Schulze
Inter-Viewing between P.E. Usha [PEU] and Brigitte Schulze [BS][transcript by Anna Heike Hierlwimmer; corrected, edited, inter-facing, # and bold letters by BS]
Date: 23.01. 2003
Location: AHADS, Agali, Attappadi, KeralaInter-Facing:
Neethi/ ‘justice’#,
in Kerala a helpless woman is a 'good woman'#, a woman with a (political) cause is a 'bad woman'; a public woman#,
there is no space to breathe for a woman between the 'good woman' and the 'bad woman',
there isn't even a certain space of respect for a wilful woman#, a woman has to submit herself and bow to patriarchal structures because neither democracy exists in Kerala, nor any civic consent about human rights,
public debates are fuelled by an attitude of the guardians of 'public morality'#,
a woman is not seen as an individual#, she is seen only in comparison to the standards of the 'good' and the 'bad' woman,
this value system of 'good' and 'bad' has to break first: what is a 'good woman', and what is 'bad woman', we have to break that first otherwise it is not easy to organise the women and find a space for them,
and also the 'single woman' has no space in Kerala society, if I’m alone [without patriarchal authority] nobody will be with me; a woman has no identity of her own, Kerala has to connect a woman with some male identity,
in the case of women people are not differentiating between private and public sphere, with respect to her body the woman is never herself, she has always to ... project a standard image and come close to that, but she cannot be an individual,
we women should network beyond formalised structures, first on a communicative level, and then in a supporting manner and issue-based,
it seems like Kerala's public is not prepared to take a thinking woman,
women’s studies are a 'good subject', and if you enter in it doing some good work you are a 'good woman',
in the traditional adivasi system it is different: these adivasi women are more courageous as compared to the mainstream urban women.
BS: P.E. Usha, we are meeting today, [...] and I would like to ask you a few questions regarding your experiences two years ago when you decided to go public on the problems you were facing after you had filed a case because of harassment in the bus. [...]
[I would] particularly [like to know] how you experienced the situation at Calicut university. And [...] what was your motif then - [... it] was April [2001], wasn’t it - [... for] your decision to go on hunger strike? [...] What was your motivation, [...] what did you think you would achieve?PEU: I waited ... [and] then the cause for this hunger strike was that the entire situation was favourable to me. Because the court order was there, the Women’s Commission was there, and also I felt that even the government, the education minister was against that culprit, and that this worked towards my course.
But again the university authorities were arrogant towards me, and they are not giving justice. So I decided to go for this hunger strike because there might be 'theoretical justices', but they are not giving justice. So, I had to act very forcefully for the women of Kerala, otherwise no single woman will get justice, will get justice, because if my fight is going in vain there is no chance to get there, either to me or to any other women. So I decided to go for fast. And I think the entire people, intellectuals and even from the Left Front who is against me, for the cause was forced to do, to understand my cause, and understand the situation, and then the scenario changed. That is the case.BS: And, if you recollect now, after you decided because of these reasons to go public and to go on hunger strike, after the first day you saw the media reaction and you saw the reaction in the campus by colleagues, and also visitors coming, how did you feel then? And particularly when you ended the hunger strike, what was on your mind? Did you feel that all this was in vain and a failure, or how would you sum it up, your feeling in those days, and how you see it today?
PEU: I’m not having the feeling that I fully succeeded. I have succeeded to a certain extent, but ...
BS: On what point particularly?
PEU: Because a major portion of the public, major population of the women intellectuals and the common man is with me. Is with our cause. But very few people are not understanding these things. Also I am not getting much support, or much assistance from some corners where I was expecting much more justice, or much more support. And also even though I decided to fight for the women’s cause I’m not getting enough - I myself realise that I myself am conditioned to a certain extent like a common woman. And I felt very emotional, I was very upset, and I was very – even – not as a failure, but not as a full strategic success. Because we are paying a very big thing for a very small cause. Strategically it is not a good thing, you know. I can clearly [say] like this. If we are going for a fast for ten days, I had fast for nine days, after ten days only I took food, but it is because of some aggression by some small, small people, no [...] what I have to say is, by a very oppressive small group of people [who are] against law and the court verdict, decisions from the government, the Women’s Commission - these were all in favour [of my cause ...]
But even then we are not getting it implemented. So we are playing at high risk for getting it done. I think it is strategically, if women have to pay this much, big investment for getting justice, I think it is a wrong message to the public. Even if you got the court order, or recommendation from an autonomous or a really big body like Women’s Commission, and even a decision in favour of you from the government, [and] you are not getting it done, [...] and you have to do a fast for ten days ... it is a wrong message. We should have worked it out in another way to ... I think, if some political parties, or some other persons ... they should have worked in another manner, in some diplomatic ways. But we don’t have that kind of strategy in women’s mind, I think so.BS: Not even in the feminist circles?
PEU: Ya. That is I think ... it is, a person like me, or a victim like me, or a survivor like me, is paying this [...] ten days of fast ... for getting implemented the justice. Even getting orders like this. It’s a big cause or a big cost for our cause, I think so.
BS: Didn’t you also pay a higher price because of the media, because somehow, o. k., most of the media were sympathetic, but the - I mean that was written in the articles, they say they were positive, you are right, and ... - but I found there was a contradiction between these writings and then the whole way how they put it, because the form was very inquisitive and insensitive, and they ... so much made it into a spectacle.
PEU: Yes, definitely.
BS: And didn’t it hurt also, I mean that you felt your whole private life was drawn in the public?
PEU: Ya, of course. Definitely it is like that. And also the media depicted me as a single, helpless woman who needs help, so "We are helping", not as a right cause I am fighting [they thought] "We have to be with her". That type of right consciousness is not there. They’re simply saying my side as [...] a poor, helpless woman who needs care, who needs support, that’s the thing. And also they depicted me as a poor, very ... a typical woman. I don’t want that image any more. And also they intruded in my private life: who is my child, and who is my husband, and who are my parents [...] and a woman coming from [...] this type of parentage should ... [be] suffering like this, that is their vision. They don’t have the sight that this woman is struggling for a woman’s cause ...
BS: Even a citizen’s cause! It is not only a woman’s cause, it’s a citizen’s cause!
PEU: Ya, ya, definitely!BS: But what I wanted to add is that the media liked to project the image of the helpless woman. Why do they want to project this? My feeling is, they need to feel 'good' as those who are the protectors of the good woman.
PEU: Ya, yayaya. And also they don’t want to create a problem by standing by my side ...
BS: For the cause ...
PEU: For the cause ... and they want only to give rescue, or give support to a helpless 'good woman' [...] a woman fighting for woman’s cause they don’t support.
BS: That was maybe also the reason, because your enemies, they did exactly the opposite. They didn’t say anything which really happened, but they made you a 'bad woman'. So your enemies made you a 'bad woman', and supporters made you a 'good woman' ...
PEU [laughing]: Both are equally evil!
BS: Exactly! Because it’s just a moral fight they fight, and they are not interested in you.
PEU: Ya, and they, my enemies, or, the word is not correct, the other people, they didn't even speak about whether that man committed that mistake [...] They talked about my character: and this woman is like that, and she had that relation, she had done that, and she had that relation with that group ... My argument is that this man has committed these things, but they kept mum about that. That is their strategy.
BS: And their strategy, wasn’t it that the man was also seen as part of their party systems ...
PEU: Ya.
BS: So, actually you were made by them into a figure who – that was what I read – [...] was like a yakshi [female demon] who is sucking the blood of this poor person? And they, magically transformed what happened into a problem of a poor low-class person who was harassed by a high-class woman ...
PEU: Ya, ya, ya, that is the main ...
BS: How would you explain this? How is it possible that in Kerala in the year 2001 this happened, and it, I mean it didn’t stop, because now we know that Mr. Kurup has entered you in a chapter of his [autobiographical] book. So, if you could speak a little bit about that: Why it is possible, specifically in the university, that something of that sort can happen?
PEU: Ya, two things I have specially to mention. One thing the ... unfortunately, our opponents became the most, happened to be the most progressive party, or people of Kerala, supposed to be the most progressive in the university. One thing. And they, even in some speeches of that time, mentioned that "our women", "women from our class" would not do like this. They will obey us, would do strike only on causes or issues that we identify. [...] They publicly addressed it saying that other women wouldn’t do strike like this:
'Usha is doing, and she had come publicly and gone for hunger strike, who told her to do all this? And where is her husband?' That’s the main question. 'And where is her father, where is her brother?', that’s the question.So, I’m a woman not protected by my husband, my father, my brothers and all ... and at one instance I openly said my father or my brothers or my husband won’t come to speak for me. I can’t even say whether they will stand for me, or not. It is my cause! I will fight, and some women will be with me, I’m sure of that. Whether women from your cabin, or your lobby will come, or not I’m not sure. Sometimes they will come if you permit some [...]
[changing tape] BS: So you said that you don’t need your brother, you don’t need your father to speak for you, you speak for yourself.
PEU: But they are not ready to receive my voice, because they are in search of my husband, in search of male counterparts, as brothers, or fathers ...
BS: How can you explain this in a university environment, and even this Kurup ...?
PEU: His autobiography, how I got placed in this autobiography?
BS: Yes.
PEU: And even though he was vice chancellor [of Calicut University], he is a very noted historian, too, he is not having a single ... he is not having enough knowledge, or even a sense about women’s rights. He even said that he had made some modifications to the rule of PhD registration for his daughter, and he said some hues and cries are going on for women’s rights, and my daughter is also a woman, that’s why I modified this rule. That is his perspective on women’s rights. He don’t have any single opinion about women’s rights, and he thinks that if a woman is a 'good woman' she should have the capacity to be an obedient woman. He once told me [...] 'You should have told me all these things, you should have come to me and told me what you needed. You should have done this. Instead you have given representations to me, and you have given a representation to Women’s Commission', etc., and all this he didn’t like. That’s why this and that thing happened.
And he manipulated the entire thing in a way as if it is all because of the media propaganda. He didn’t even admit that a man from my working place had done this, and this ... harm ..., this harmed me a lot. He didn’t admit; and he cannot even imagine that a woman [...] should have a certain space of respect, he cannot even imagine. He is of the opinion that, if one political party or some organisation is there, a woman should go to them and be safe there. He cannot imagine a free thinking woman. And he says because of the Playboy - the articles published in some magazines like Playboy stories - it created many bad images about the university. Because of me, the image of the university became low, and because of me, his image as vice chancellor became low, and that type of thing.
And a lot of defamatory things are there in that article, I’m going ... I’m planning to approach the court as a defamation case, because it is definitely harmful to any of my woman colleagues even. Because he is saying that all of the women, girl students of the university suffered, because of my ... this thing. And he says that he approached even Women Governor telling that I was not fighting the real culprit. That was their argument. A real culprit, an unreal culprit. Real culprit is the culprit in the bus, the other culprit is not at all a culprit.
BS: This ..., what was his name, who was ...
PEU: [at the university] Prakashan.
BS: The colleague in the university who started all this defamation?
PEU: Yes. But they are not ... they are not in a position to confess this was a serious offence. They are always of the opinion that it was not ... really an offence, only a simple remark. Any woman would understand that, but not ... a women of my kind not having any discipline, morality, and all. They think so.
BS: That is also what he wrote?
PEU: Ya.
BS: He wrote that? That you are a woman without discipline?
PEU: Ya, not exactly [...] Kurup wrote that, some leaders speak like that. Kurup wrote like this 'She should have approached the real culprit, instead of pursuing this cause.'
And ... that was this Playboy thing ... all the incidents that happened in the university he distorted. Something he did not tell, something he manipulated, and something he cunningly hid, some decisions also, actually the campus delayed the report and the complaints committee for two years. But it is not in his autobiography article, he just, he didn’t even know about these things, and he hid some decisions even [... he insinuated]I didn't co-operate with the Enquiry Commission. Actually, it was not the case, I co-operated expressing my objections against anything that deviated from the rules, and I co-operated with all these commissions even though it was extremely painful. Because these insensitive persons are destroying me by ... asking all these nonsense questions .... But again I co-operated with them. If I would not have co-operated they would say I was not co-operating. But this man, the vice chancellor, irresponsibly commented that I was not co-operating ... Even now I have not received any positions, or the commission reports. Even after [...] I requested five times to get the commission reports ... the vice chancellor is irresponsibly saying that I’m ... he used the word 'covering' , this was the word he used. It means a covering piece of cloth. In the name of harassment I had actually done something which was a crime, that I put hidden meanings there. I had covered some things in the name of harassment. [...]
BS: This is actually defamation of you, also as an employee at the Calicut university.
PEU: Yes, I had to go back there, and unlike Prakashan he is the responsible person. Prakashan is only a colleague, but he is the employer who is giving employment, and he is supposed to give me the security and safe atmosphere, self-respect, all, to be there. But he is denying all this and saying these things. It’s a double wrong thing to act in this manner. And Prakashan, he is only a colleague, a person ... if a person is very bad ... he can do. But a person with responsibility [...]. he is very irresponsible saying [...] so many lies. But I’m sure that I can prove all these are lies, because there are evidences in the university files. I can request them to produce it in the court ...
BS: When I am listening to you and [...] observing things happening around us in Kerala, I am getting the strong impression that democracy and civil society here are only hollow words, but it is not really existing. [...] if any person within the society is pushed to the margins: a woman struggling for the acknowledgement of her basic human rights, then the poor people who are always pushed due to these economic structures and also because of the interest party politics, [...] and others, too, like adivasis, dalits, anyone who is not a member of the existing interest groups, has no space in the society. Usually we call this space 'civil society' in a democracy, and you can appeal so that your human rights are acknowledged and guarded by certain political structures, and you can appeal also as a citizen. If I see anyone here appealing to rights of a democratic citizen, a human being, a woman human being, you have no space to go. Because, like in the case of Mr. Kurup, he makes it very clear [...] his attitude is of feudal character. He says 'You are a woman, you are like my daughter, you should have come to me, I’m like your father, I was there but you did not come, why didn’t you come?', and then he starts to scold you as if you were a family member, and he is using a language as if he was the patriarch and you were the minor. I am often coming across this patronising language here.
PEU: Ya, definitely.
BS: And actually this is what I am working on: the idea of Kerala as a civil society, question mark; as a public sphere, question mark; I would even say it is none of these two. It [...] has forms of a highly depressing patriarchal and feudal society, only that the feudal parties have different names. They have names like Congress Party and Union so-and-so, and CPI(M), etc. We can name all the parties because they are all locations of vested interests, not parties in a democratic sense, but representing vested interests.
When we look into the economic sphere we will understand that we never - if the adivasis struggle for land - appeal to basic human rights of leading a safe life in Kerala. Are adivasis Kerala citizens? Often, if one talks to people in the city, they don't even acknowledge adivasis as human beings, and they do not think of adivasis as citizens in Kerala. This is one observation I wanted to share with you.
And how do you feel now if you look back at this experience, what do you feel are the chances of women to secure their rights, democratic rights, human rights, and citizen rights, what can she do? Cause the structure is very difficult being of this patriarchal type.PEU: Ya, it is very difficult, I feel. If some women are coming out with their right consciousness, they are again pulled back, or pushed back in a way that either they have to go with some political party, or with some other social organisations, having the same patriarchal values or culture. So these will even invisibly control the woman. It is very difficult.
In my case I feel that even the progressive front could not really understand the problem. Because of this they can go with us only few steps. No one of all the social organisations, or political parties would come along, that is the problem. [... and with respect to] these family values, morality, they won’t even touch [...] In my struggle I felt this very much. If my husband were with me, many people would have come with us, because I am a 'very good woman'. Because my husband [...] and me differed in opinion, many of the people hesitated. They never came. Many of our close friends - we had worked together in so many struggles for environment and all this - and even now they are not bold enough to call me or phone - they had already created the image of a 'bad woman' ... they don’t even want to touch our phone to that bad woman; this is the case.
This value system of 'good' and 'bad' has to break first. What is a 'good woman', and what is 'bad woman', we have to break that first. Otherwise it is not easy to organise the women and find a space for them. And also the 'single woman' has no space in Kerala society. Only for the married woman having a husband with her* they can bestow* this morality status with 'good values', 'good woman' caring her husband, caring their children, caring their parents, and all. If a woman happens to be out of this circle you have to suffer. You don’t have a space at all.BS: This is a very important point. In my writing on the topic of Kerala society and women I have already chosen one chapter which deals with this 'good woman', and this chapter gives your case as an exemplary incident.
PEU: Ya ...
BS: I find it very important in the case of Kerala to understand that here ... there is no debate that would really be issue-oriented. All the debates - even a land struggle by Janu - are not issue-oriented, but poses the question if she was a 'good woman'; it is presented in this form: Is she with the right interest group? 'No, no, no, she was walking with ... Who is with her? Oh, she was walking with CM Antony'. So the Left will say 'no'. In another case the Red Flag will say 'no, no, no, she is with CPI(M), this is not good', and then CPI(M) is concerned because ... I don’t know what. And then the Conservatives invent stories with 'the terrorists', so-called terrorists. All these groups are not discussing, but they are actually avoiding to discuss the real problem of the adivasi life in Kerala, and they also do not discuss the problem of Kerala. Its whole population actually has a 'land problem' because all this land has been devastated. It is not only a problem of adivasis. It is a problem of the whole population.
So they push ... - Janu being single, fighting and all - they do not address this issue, but they start this question of whether she is a 'good woman', [...] one transforms it into a moral discussion. Someone says 'Oh, she is the Jeanne d’Arc of Kerala ...PEU: ... but her way of action is not good... not proper' ...
BS: ... and the other ...
PEU: ... Kerala is always waiting for a prophet who is going to tell all this in a good manner. [laughing] But that prophet won’t come in the coming ages, I don’t think so.
BS: [laughing] Maybe he is coming but not recognised because they are so stupid they ...
PEU: ... the good prophet won’t recognise these problems ...
BS: So, it is very easy to be happy with Yesudasan singing his nice songs ...
PEU: I think it is a trick to avoid these issues: it is said by a 'bad woman', it is said by a 'bad group', it is helped by a 'bad group', that type of things will definitely save these people not to interfere, or not to support the real issues. That’s the trick.
BS: It’s really a trick. And if we see that - you said first in Kerala we have to break this way of magically transforming issues into moral questions# - so one has to break this habit that the people avoid to objectively discuss an issue, and not whether - only with regard to a woman, never they discuss whether the prime minister, or the chief minister, or another person, any man. [laughing] He is never drawn into the public and whether his wife is a 'good housewife', and whether she is working, and whether he has a nice conduct, and whether his mother is speaking for him, etc., no, no, never.
PEU: This is because Kerala people see the woman in the kitchen# only. Always they are searching who stands behind her, who stand by her side. Who are her parents, and who else is with her, and who is her daughter, her son, who is her husband, etc.
An independent woman is not on the mind of Kerala, that’s the main thing. So, normal Kerala has to connect this woman with someone else, some other identity.
In my case, some of the people are happy with my parents. Father because he was from a Namboodiri Brahmin family, and he has been with the Left, and he was a professor in the college. They are happy with my parentage, and my house, and my mother, a typical housewife, my parentage is o. k. But I’ve broken the tradition by marrying a non-Namboodiri man. So this is what is important to them, this is the history, they start my history from there only. And then everything collapsed. Later they admitted this thing: marrying a non-caste man [they saw as my mistake] but again I committed a crime when I separated from him. So how can they admit me as an individual, they can’t. That’s the case.BS: You’re out of the framework.
PEU: Ya, they have to put me into some 'room'/ an environment of parents, brothers, husband, daughter and sons. If I’m alone, nobody will be with me.
BS: But if - I mean the structures are very strong which support this - if you realise it is all in the politics, the whole state is organised like that. It is in the economics, and these are the strongest structures. Only if these structures are changed, one can enter new ideas in the mind of the people. So, how do you think that we women here in Kerala could challenge these suppressive structures? It sounds like Sisiphus work. One conclusion you already mentioned that this system is so much manipulated by these vested interest that it is not possible to fight your cause. But don’t you think that there might be many silent voices, maybe singular persons in Kerala who would sympathise, but they are without voice?
PEU: Ya, they are silenced. And [...] as in my case a lot of single conscious, right conscious voices are coming from various corners. We have to organise it collectively and make it a very big voice. It needs strong efforts because all these voices are coming from small, small pockets, from dalits, from adivasis, from some other marginalised groups, and even from some intellectual groups also, some very bold right-conscious voices are coming. If we would associate, [have]something in common, like ... - I think a formal forum at this stage would not be possible, it will again create problems, all formal forums will be ...
BS: They will harm you more.
PEU: Ya. So the networking# of these voices in an informal manner, and at the same time understanding the concerns and causes ... in what other manner could we communicate, or help, support ... that type of thing, to me appears to be more effective because we are all women and also ... we have, I told you that I myself am conditioned as a woman in this society. So a formal forum will not work towards our goal. This type of networking would be more effective. I don’t know whether we can start something like this networking, first on a communicative level, and then in a supporting manner and issue-based [...] and later we could think about a formal form, or possible steps.
BS: Ya, I also reached a point thinking it would be very good ... at least, if a woman would take up a struggle like that, that immediately some voices and some people can come and just give moral support, and then acting like a 'mirror' they should speak out, speak to the media, to the public: 'See, this is what you are doing', one has to show this image/ reflection to them.
PEU: We could replicate this force, so it will become a major force that will resound in the public as well as in the mind of the sufferer, or the fighter. It will be a force.
BS: [...] I felt sorry, last time ...
[new tape]BS: ... When you were doing the hunger strike, and also now I feel very disturbed that your taking up of a strike looks as if it is something very 'exotic': 'this is Usha', and she is doing something and they can push it into a corner and - now the same thing happens with Janu: 'This woman, she became mad, she is under the influence of this and this and this' ...
It seems like the public is not prepared to take a thinking woman.The idea that a woman thinks and knows, and that she has a vision ...
PEU: ya ...
BS: ... and that she can also ... the notion that a woman may have her reasons not to 'fit' into established patterns, but shows that the pattern of family, of this way of being a woman in the society at the mercy of these men, is not what she wanted, that she wants something different.
No one can digest a thinking woman who wants to burst the existing structures.PEU: ya, ya
BS: And if a woman fighting like that would get more support by others, I think would give much strength because otherwise ...
... I think you must have felt so weak also because of this fasting, and also very sad inside, no [isn't it?], whatever you suffered as a person.If this network# could be created in a way that it gives strength to the woman and would point out to the others that they are projecting a very harmful image [of a woman], not only now and to this woman, but also [to themselves]. Once it will affect themselves [...] but now the attitude is: 'Oh, this Usha has nothing to do with me!' That was [in your case] the contradiction. You said:' I’m fighting for the women of Kerala', but actually only few women understood, most asked: 'What is this woman to me?'
PEU [laughing]: 'She is a real fool', a real 'good fool', not enjoying family life, being a daughter and with her family life she got the facilities due to a woman to encourage people, that type of thing. And also a woman is always created as a subsidiary creature, even intellectually, she can be dependent of that male group only. Everywhere it is the case, and he then will give you advices and instructions and all ...
BS [laughing]: You can be 'grown by him' ...
PEU: [...] Under his surveillance you can 'grow' to any extent, but beyond that with all the male intellectuals keeping you under surveillance, you cannot do. And many pointed out that this thing is not good, or that thing is not good, you should have done like this, you should have written like this, etc. I have been given so many advices by various people because they all think that I’m a premature individual# by all means, intellectually, in respect to my political decisions, economically, and all. And you cannot say ... this is not a mature idea of striking for a women’s cause. [...]
One of my friends was like that, she was fighting for my cause on the campus, and some teachers of the university advised her not to give support to me, instead she should fight against the plastics on the campus. She was even advised by one of her professors, who was the chair person of the Complaints Committee and [...] a fighter under the progressive women’s group of that campus ... that will not harm your personality, your perspective and your family life, your friends and everything, [laughing] you can fight against the plastics.BS [laughing]: Very good also, but not complementary ...
PEU: Not for Usha’s cause, but you can fight against the plastics accumulation in the campus.
BS [laughing]: And then she will be in the newspapers, or in the Guinness book of records - this is also that idea in Kerala one always wants to compete: 'Who collected most plastic bottles, and who has done the best dance, this Mohiniattom dance, something like this ...
PEU [laughing]: Most women dance! You can enter by eating more things ...
BS [laughing]: The 'idli record eater' ...
PEU [laughing]: These are the main interests in Kerala: making very big, big houses, paintings ...
BS: [You paint] the longest wall with mural paintings ... at this Sanskrit university, and then you'll meet with much sympathy and enter the newspapers.
PEU: And it will create a new era which won’t hurt anybody’s feelings. And at the same time you become a novel activist, ... that is what you can play.
But if we are going behind [...] women’s rights, it will create minimum, and we’ll be criticised by the so-called good people living there ...
I think the intellectuals# are creating more problems here, because even women activists, or women intellectuals are not daring enough to stand with the woman activist ... [the intellectuals] are creating only knowledge ... and they are minimising the space.
If they would stand with the activist one would be more effective, I think ...BS: You feel, actually, that most of those who call themselves feminists# in Kerala have also internalised the idea of a more or less 'good woman', and this type of a 'good woman' can also fight for the woman’s cause ...
PEU: Women fighting for the woman’s cause in academics won't be very harmful, and it can be permitted, it is permissible. Women’s studies# are a good subject, a really new subject, and if you enter in it doing some good work, you are a 'good woman'.
At the same time you are not ready to support a women activist who is pioneering for the women’s cause, you are not supposed to do so because you would associate with a 'bad woman' and consequently you are loosing some of your chances as a 'modern woman'. At the same time you are working for women’s cause. This contradiction is there. In the contemporary women’s movement, in the women's studies academia this is there.
BS: More than one year after the hunger strike, today, do you feel most encouraging to you was the support from either men or women who are somehow practically doing something? Do you feel that you are not at all getting any positive echo on your fight, still even from women academics, or so-called academic feminists? Do you feel more close to and supported by people who are in the field, or more by intellectuals?
PEU: Very few supported me after the strike, or still, now, very few. I think most of the people are thinking like that I already won the struggle. So [they conclude] there was no more need for supporting me. Some people are thinking like that. And some others are thinking - even some women groups - that I did not fully approach them, that I’m not giving all the reports they should know, that I am not acknowledging them, etc. I’m not minding all these things. And from some corners, some unexpected corners they are supporting me ...
BS: These unexpected corners are more in the academic or in other fields?
PEU: In other fields, not from the academia#. Some of these think that I became unnatural because of undeserved popularity and an undeserved position due to this struggle. I think these people are estimating what I got and what were the costs, etc.
And these academic circles are not fully supportive because they are always finding some mistakes. It is not a planned circular, it is not fully legalised by the women groups, and this type of thing. I’m not finding any fault with them, but that type of analysis will not be helpful for a struggle like this, because it cannot be worked out like a planned thing, the full plan. We cannot plan for a struggle. Because in some moment we are getting support and in some other moment we are not getting support, in one moment we get a good verdict from the court, in some other moment we will not get it ...we cannot plan it in advance ...
Therefore, I feel even in women’s groups and in academic circles people are thinking that if [I had been] with my husband, it would have been very good. Even some feminist activists# openly told me that if you are with your husband, how could it be a very classic struggle and all. But I don’t think it will make a difference.BS: That’s also very stupid of them. You have your own reasons to leave your husband, and ...
PEU: In the case of women people are not differentiating between private and public spheres. Always they are mixing the two, and this creates problems. One thing I noticed is from some unexpected corners I got support, from some bureaucrats and very big people, we are usually not supposed to get support, I noticed even smallest things of them. They are openly appreciating me. I don’t know why in Kerala we are compartmentalising people as 'progressive' etc., it is not really like that. In one compartment there are these people, but as 'progressives' we have lots who are very orthodox and conservative. I realised it only after this struggle.
BS: One last thing I wanted to ask. Now you are also preparing for some meeting on International Women’s Day. Do you think that - what you understood of the importance to challenge this public image of 'woman' who is only looked at in terms of morality as 'good' or as 'bad' - that this isn’t in the minds of most women, too? That we would possibly first have to make this an issue of our meetings to liberate the woman’s own mind on her position in society? That they, too, should not think along the standard of being a 'good woman', or 'bad woman'? Of course, no woman wants to be a bad woman ... However, I found this to be very strong that the women [...] do not question, and even if they question ...
For example in the case of my work with dalit women I see that they have a very insightful, great understanding of all these contradictions, and anyway, they are at a big distance to the moralities of the mainstream society, anyhow, they have a different history. Like working women, and poor classes also, and like Kerala's sex workers [with whom I was in touch], too, they have a different view. But one thing I found which made me think: when we concretely imagine a situation when a woman is facing male authority# ...[new tape]
[2nd part of the inter-view]BS: This is now the second part of our interview 23 January 2003, and I wanted to know from Usha how she sees this idea of identity, of being a 'good woman' [with respect to women's self images]? How it can be changed in the women themselves if they would not dare* to speak out according to their conscience out of fear of male authority? How do you see this, and you wanted to say something about the difference you see in the adivasi environment ...
PEU: Now I am working with adivasis. Adivasis are different from the mainstream women of Kerala. They are daring enough even to correct their men, to a certain extent, not fully. For example in the issue of this illicit liquor programme they are daring enough to say that their husbands are using the major part of their income for their drinking. And they are willing to stop their husbands, and they are ... willing to organise women against this. They say ... when we are asking to ... form some groups, initially I wanted to know from them whether they are willing to work with a male group, mixed group, or with a female group. So they said they are not willing to work with male groups. Because their version was, that many of the men are drinking, so they won’t get the sincere co-operation from them. And they told that only from among themselves, from the women it is necessary to work against this liquor ... and we founded these women’s groups in 100 and 900 hamlets.
And these female majority groups are working well when compared to the male-female groups [...] Because the [mixed groups] are always dominated by the male members ... even though female members are the majority now. But the ideas are imposed by the men.
And during our training I asked what type of discrimination they were facing in the committee or ... in public, at home ...Though many women are ready to list out their discriminations they are not getting proper [space].
Even one woman told me that she wanted to have a fresh breakfast. She used to make idlis and doshas, but always it was for her husband, children and brothers only. She and her mother-in-law used to eat only yesterday's, this old rice, and she wanted to change it. I very much appreciated this plan of hers, and I asked about the remedy, practically. Then she said that she wanted to have a choice to waste what she had prepared at night, so there is no question of eating it the next day. She wanted the liberty to give it a dog, or a cow, etc. ... that’s her vision, it is an odd vision.I think many of our mainstream women don’t have the courage to say like this. Because she will again think of all this making the most of anything, [a typical characteristic] of the mainstream women ... Women of her family have to use the resources to the maximum. She will have the capacity to utilise the minimum resources to maximum [... Contrasting this], I think, adivasis in their social set-up itself have this notion of equality ... to a certain extent.
BS: Still you feel [a certain difference is there]? Because often I came across the observation that many of the adivasi groups were also much influenced by the value system of the mainstream society.
PEU: Definitely.
BS: This is creeping in, no [isn't it]?
PEU: Ya
BS: But one can still say there are certain differences, particularly also in the way how the women take their stand.
PEU: Ya, the modern adivasi women and modern adivasi family much ... resemble the mainstream. 'Modern' means educated, government employees ... Adivasi families are acquiring the mainstream morality and customs. These behave like our mainstream women. But in the traditional system it is different, these women are more courageous as compared to the mainstream.
BS: Would you say this holds also true for peasant women? I found there is a difference between the behaviour of [...] women who are living in the villages, who are still more in farm work, and of urban women. I found the most conservative women really in the urban middle classes.
PEU: Ya, middle classes, I think these peasant women are a little different from these middle classes though everywhere people are acquiring these middle class values and morality which symbolise the model of development and ...
BS: ...progress ...PEU: ...progress# yes, ... so, people made the more silent woman the model, the weaker woman, the less talking woman became the model ... A woman, if she is a 'good woman', won’t create any problem, any question, any song, any movement at all. She must be controlled by some male power, or she will become ...
BS: That’s interesting. If we look at things like this - that’s also something I already conceptualised, I drafted when I was thinking and later writing on your hunger strike and all. The idea stroke me that, actually, the ideal woman, Kerala's 'best woman' is not visible, not audible, etc., she is the non-existing woman.
PEU: Ya, I want to add one thing. A very famous feminist of Kerala, Geetha, wrote an article on my issue and Vinaya's issue# - you know a woman police constable in ...BS: In Thiruvananthapuram?
PEU: No, she is based in Wayanad. Vinaya, a police constable, she was fighting against this gender injustice. In the police application form there is no question of mother, only of father. She [Vinaya] is a very right-conscious woman, a good woman in my sense. And Geetha wrote an article on this issue, and compared me with Vinaya saying like this: Vinaya is not fasting, she is not appealing to the media, and she is not demanding suspension of the culprit, she is not made a tool of some visual media. A very big article on my issue. And I responded to her like this: Vinaya will simply feel ashamed of an article like this. Actually, Vinaya wanted to raise more questions, but you are [in your article] confining her to a 'model woman' who is not speaking much, not raising questions, not addressing the media. And she is putting all these qualities as bad qualities, and dividing me and Vinaya into two ... - a very, very funny thing, I ...
BS: Where did she publish it?
PEU: In Madhyamam [...] one year back ...
BS: Do you have this issue?
PEU: Ya, I give you a copy [...] Even feminists are having this value system in their brains, in their minds, in their bodies also ...
BS: What do you think about [the way how a woman's] 'body' [figures in Kerala]? I mean, we said [laughing] the most appreciated 'woman' in Kerala is the one who isn't physically present: you don’t hear her, you don’t smell her, but you only smell her idlis, and she is very functional ...
PEU [laughing]: You can experience her!
BS: If she is at your disposal, but otherwise being invisible [...] even feminists here think like this ... In the academic field, at least in Europe, there are some interesting questions with regard to 'body politics'. Kerala appears to me as a very strange case because in most of the other societies one aspect of the body politics is that the woman’s body is sold as a commodity: a visual commodity. It is playing a major role here, too, [but only in a very removed, invisible, purely moral sphere], and in other societies these body politics are much more 'exhibitionist' ... Here in Kerala - and this might be somehow unique, you don’t have it in Africa, you don’t have it in Latin America, etc. - they are so mad about [the usability of a woman and at the same time she has to cover herself up with] this dupatha and all that. You should not be visible, a woman should not talk loudly, she should not laugh in public - this is really very rare in this world - and Kerala is a 'development model'. This is co-existing. [...] The 'model woman' is invisible. How do you see this, how do you think the mainstream woman feels physically? Does she think that her body is something existing only to please the public eye, and men’s eyes ...
PEU: ... ya ...
BS: ... and consequently she makes herself visible according to these standards. Besides this she hasn't any tiny space for an idea of her own body? Can one say like this, that she has no idea of her own body?
PEU: Kerala people are not understanding a woman’s body. I worked with many government offices and there are no places to dispose of this thing [sanitary napkins] ...
BS: Even toilets are a problem ...
PEU: Even now all government offices are meant for men and women, but they won’t provide the space for women public toilets, no. I think that the government, or the power structure is not admitting women’s body and women. This menstruation is a periodic thing, and we must have facilities. They think that it’s something that women have to find a solution in their own capacity, they have to hide all these things, and they have to suffer ...
BS: They have to suffer!
PEU: All women are suffering from time immemorial. Even now, and at the same time Kerala is a civilised, developed society, ...
BS: ... modern ...
PEU: ... society, ya. And we have advertisement like this. Even now we don’t have a space to dispose of sanitary napkins, even in hostels. In hostels we don’t have a space, in offices we don’t have a space, we have to find a very private space at our own expense, in our own way. And also, as far as this dress and body is concerned, it is again for pleasing somebody else, not for our own ...
BS: You cannot just like ... yourself, you cannot be proud of, whatever, your legs, or so, no.
PEU: No, you are not permitted to do so. You have to please others. Even very distant persons, or alien persons use to tell a woman that she is not properly dressed. In Kerala even auto-rikshaw drivers will say to a woman that she is not dressed 'good'. Any man can express his opinion on the woman's body, it’s o. k. Normally each and every woman dresses ... Vinaya is fighting for pants and shirts ...even female police officers were not allowed to dress in pants and shirts, only saris - very recently this was changed.
And women are also very submissive. They are eager to get approval from the male mainstream society. Suffering from all this inconvenience, all this sari wearing, and wearing fashions designed by some male ... women are not daring enough to chose their dresses by their convenience [...] They are not courageous enough to express their desire in dressing or expressing their body as their own [...] They are not daring, always suffering to please others' gaze, I feel so.
BS: The woman is never herself actually, she has always to ... project an image which is a standard image, and to it she has to match. She can never be individual#.
PEU: No, no, never, she is not supposed to do so. When some friends from Trivandrum told me that I cannot walk there without this dupatha: 'You are not allowed to'. People will insult or attack you because you are going without. How sad it is, no? Kerala being a developed ... and even I ... I am of the opinion that real obscenity and this dress code are two different issues, but Kerala is mixing it all up. Women are supposed to be like this, otherwise she would be branded as obscene. It is 'obscenity' according to this dress code ... They are mixing up morality, obscenity, and this image of a woman. [...] Women are afraid to express their own ... Especially in Kerala what a woman wears is meant for understanding her age, her status, all this is behind this rigid dress code.
Just 'a woman', specifically this single woman again, has no space, has no dress. She can wear anything, she is not supposed to do this thing, she is not coming under this category. She can, because she is already beyond the sphere [of a 'good Kerala woman'].BS: Do you see an important difference in the ideas of adivasi women and their body, are they a little more free?
PEU: No, they are greatly influenced by the movies and the mainstream with respect to their behaviour as a consumer using cosmetics, dress etc., in their whole appearance. They also want to become an 'ideal woman'. It is like this because of the influence by the movies. It’s visual impressions capturing them.
*end of inter-viewing*
